The Pope's Our Buddy, Right??
Nope...!
As Gojira has noted on his blog, the Pope doesn't even believe you're part of "the Church" unless have a Roman Catholic sign over your church door...
As Gojira has noted on his blog, the Pope doesn't even believe you're part of "the Church" unless have a Roman Catholic sign over your church door...
Fred -my pastor and former Catholic- has also written about this topic on the Metter First Baptist blog. Fred is excited about the dialog this will create. (So am I!)
If I were a betting man, I'd bet that a few of the signatories of the ECT are now crying out "Et tu, Brute?"
(In his defense, the Pope is only being consistent with centuries of Catholic dogma...)
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Speaking Ex Cathedra,
Rhett Kelley
10 comments:
The pope's comments make sense, given the Catholic definition of church: a visible organisation that has existed for 2000 years and has the apostolic succession and the papacy.
This obviously differs from the protestant definition of church: a group of like-minded Christians.
The pope isn't being insulting, he's just operating under a different definition of church (and that definition has been in use for longer than the other).
"a group of like minded Christians"
??
Nah, I don't think so... (if so, they sure aren't Southern Baptist!)
The Church goes back further than the Babylonian Mystery cult that has been masqerading as the Lord's visible organization for the last 2000 years.
The Church is comprised of all whom God has chosen to save out of fallen humanity.
Wayne Grudem puts it, "the church is the community of all true believers for all time."
My brother Rhett,
As a fellow sinner saved by God's grace, I humbly suggest that before you bear witness against another, whether a pope or your next-door neighbor, your soul will benefit by your first being sure that the testimony is accurate.
In the very same document in which you falsely claim the pope declares "the Pope doesn't even believe you're part of "the Church" unless (you) have a Roman Catholic sign over your church door," he *actually* wrote the following:
"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.
"...there are 'numerous elements of sanctification and of truth' which are found outside her (the Catholic Church's) structure, but which 'as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity' ...It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.",
Humbly submitted, I remain (by papal decree, no less) your servant and brother in Christ,
--Theo
Theo,
I appreciate your contribution and your kind spirit.
"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", correct?
If I'm not mistaken, I am considered "anathema" by Rome because I believe in Justification by faith alone...
If that is so, then I cannot be your brother in Christ. (Or am I mistaken on this also??)
RK
You're not mistaken, Rhett.
The Council of Trent has never been recinded or changed. In fact Vatican II specifically reaffirms its doctrines.
No Roman Catholic apologist has the authority to tell you differently than what Trent set down.
Rome is a dove, wanting only peace, until she's in charge.
While I most heartly agree with Gordan, you will most likly get a very different answer depending upon the Catholic you ask. Most follow the Catechism and will tell you that the anathema's no longer apply, as they strickly were for the Reformers and others who laft the RCC with them. A Catholic who is more in line with a Trad understanding will tell you that yes you are anathema. A middle of the roader Catholic will tell you that you are fine just so long as you don't really understand RCC teachings, but should you and still refuse the RCC, then yes, you have jepordized your soul. I have been told the last one a couple times.
Wow: lots of good stuff.
Dear Rhett:
I'm grateful for your providing this forum and fostering dialog.
I'm glad to say you are mistaken, but for reasons that are understandably not obvious to the casual reader of that portion of text out of its textual and historical context.
"Anathema" as a term of cannon law in the Church that referred to a particular type of condemnation of a teaching or practice that rendered the practitioner eligible for formal excommunication. Please note that excommunication does not mean "condemned to hell."
That a Church Council addressing the volatile issues of the Reformation era would name any Catholic who professed the doctrine of salvation by faith alone "anathema" is not surprising.
You could not be "anathema" whatever you believe, as it applies only to Catholics who profess full communion with the Church. Obviously, no Protestant can be excommunicated from a Church that he himself acknowledges he is not in full communion with already. Further, the Church cannot claim authority over those who of their own profession are not its members. No bishop, priest or practitioner of the Catholic faith can rightfully call you “Anathema.”
What might surprise you is to know that much counter-reformation cannon law of Trent has been clarified and or rescinded (It cannot be repealed or repudiated.) over the centuries. To the best of my knowledge, there is no longer *any* provision for formal excommunication within Catholic Church cannon law today. Thus, even a Catholic expressing your belief, though prohibited from *teaching* it, would not be "condemned" to formal excommunication. In a moderately related fashion, Pope Benedict has said of Bishops who advocate abortion that the Church does not excommunicate them, but they excommunicate themselves.
I understand how these distinctions might seem mere hair-splitting sophistry to one who does not embrace Church doctrine. Further, I expect that your reformed understanding of doctrines of salvation might have you conclude that I am not your brother. I hope and pray you will recognize my Christianity, but not by sacrificing real truth for false unity.
Regardless, please do know that I understand the ancient teaching of the church as it is clarified and the modern teaching of the Church right down to this latest statement by the Pope, all command me to recognize your genuine Christianity and brotherhood in Christ.
I hope this helps rather than hinders.
I remain your humble servant and brother in Christ,
--Theo
My brother Rhett:
You also asked:
"'Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus', correct?
I'm sorry I neglected to answer in the previous post.
The answer to your question is yes, you are correct; however, your understanding of what that means, again, as clarified by the Church, is not.
Yes, the Church still teaches that outside of the Church there is no salvation. What she has come to understand is that one does not have to profess Catholic Church affiliation for the saving mission of the Church to apply: in short: all who are saved are saved in the Church of Christ present and operative in their salvation, whether they know it or not--not because they submit to the authority of the visible Catholic Church structure, but because they submit to the lordship of Christ who commissioned her.
With the above in mind, please look again at the following quote from the Pope in this latest document.
"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.
"...there are 'numerous elements of sanctification and of truth' which are found outside her, (the Catholic Church's) structure, but which 'as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity' "It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church."
I don't expect you to believe that what the Pope teaches is so; however, I hope you can recognize that what he teaches, he believes, and asks all Catholics to practice. As for me, I believe and practice accordingly. Which is also why I remain your humble servant and brother in Christ,
--Theo
"Further, I expect that your reformed understanding of doctrines of salvation might have you conclude that I am not your brother. I hope and pray you will recognize my Christianity, but not by sacrificing real truth for false unity."
Theo,
I am not one who would declare that there are no genuine Christians within the Catholic system - and perhaps you are one of them- however, I am very hopefull that any born again person in the Roman church will be lead of the Spirit to see the errors of the Vatican and break ties with it as soon as possible.
Thanks again,
RK
Rhett wrote:
"I am not one who would declare that there are no genuine Christians within the Catholic system - and perhaps you are one of them- however, I am very hopefull that any born again person in the Roman church will be lead of the Spirit to see the errors of the Vatican and break ties with it as soon as possible.
Thanks again,"
Thank *you* Rhett. I could not ask for a more charitable response than you have given.
I too pray that the Holy Spirit guide us in truth wherever He leads. May my personal pride and intellectual investment never hinder me from following. As we are told, "Today if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts."
Your brother in Christ,
--Theo
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